I'm new to this forum and was really impressed at the vast amount of information, but there was one thing I could not find. I am 18 and through various parts of my life have had short hair and dyed it frequently. I started to grow it out about four years ago and stopped dying it (I was bored with dying). The problem is that I do not like the natural texture of my hair when it is long. When I let it go for a while it starts to look like my hair is thinning, when, in fact, it is just thin, heavy, and greasy. Really greasy. Not to mention, it would not hold a curl using rollers or irons for beans. So, every time I grow my hair long, I perm it. Since, I was in elementry school. When I would go through a short phase for a few years, I would just let it be straight because it usually looked fine until it hit my shoulders. My hair is the longest it has be for a long time, is cut in layers, and permed. The longest layer is now mid-back. I have no intention of not perming my hair (though I my hair holds a good perm so I only need to do it once or twice a year at most). I think it looks beautiful now, but I would like some tips on how to treat it right and grow it longer safely. I also would like some info on how to get rid of these "twigs" of hair that spring up along my part. I do not know if they are broken off or simply new hair growth that has not gotten the mind yet to lie down.
As far as what I use on my hair, I use: Fructis Long and Strong Shampoo, Aussie three minute deep conditioner (one or twice a week), and Loreal leave in conditioner, and occasionally mousse on the roots.
Thank you.  ;D

Welcome!

If you plan to continue to grow your hair long, you will need to be very careful with your hair.  The chemical process of perming dries out the hair.  Repeated chemical processing eventually can cause enough to the hair that it will break off.  If you make sure the hair is moistuized you might be able to delay the process.  

Silicone type ingredients will strengthen the hair and prevent some damage, but it also smothers the hair, preventing moisture from getting into the shaft.  The moisture is necessary for the hair to remain flexible and soft.  Most (if not all) Fructis products contain -cones.  Your leave-in may as well.  I don't think the Aussie 3minute conditioner does, but I'd have to look.  If thse products are working for you now, that is fine.  I'd just suggest that you do a regular clarifying with either the Aussie Mega shampoo or similar product, and/or you do a vinegar/water rinse after shampooing and before conditioning.

When they perm your hair - is it possible to limit the exposure to the ends?  Your stylist might have additional suggestions for conditioning.

Those "twigs" are a problem many of us experience.  As the hair gets longer, they usually become more manageable.  A bit of aloe vera can tame them, or even a bit of jojoba oil.  

Hang around a bit more and I'm sure others will come up with more suggestions.

If you like curls, but don't want to damage your hair, there are safe ways of curling eg. rag curls or braiding (makes nice waves). It's good for hair to keep it up...many updo styles are surprisingly easy to learn. Updos and braided styles are also excellent ways of masking greasiness.

How often do you wash? Trying to prolong intervals between washings and using milder products can help with greasy hair.

Thank a bunch for the advice. I have heard about people who want lift but not a perm getting only the roots permed.  I may try using rag curls to keep my hair curly so I can perm the roots only. The top of my hair goes flat after only a few months of a perm (where it is growing out), but the rest of my hair never looses the curl. The curl just become looser.  How long do rag curls usually take to do? I have never done them before or heard about them until I found this site.
So silicone products smother hair? Lately, even if I don't put anything in my hair besides shampoo and conditioner, it sticks together in large strands and feels like it has gel in it. I only way to fix it is to repick it, and then it is a frizz ball. Could this be the silicone? Also, how would you recommend I wash my hair (like what products to use how often)?
Oh, and where can I get aloe vera or joboba oil? I know they sell aloe vera for sunburns, but is there any other way to buy it?

One last thing I forgot. :P Right now the only brushing I do on my hair is to use a pick to get out knots. Do you think brushing it with a good brush would be beneficial? All the brushes I've used in the past are frizz producting demons, but I've never even heard of some of the brushes mention in this site.

I have kept a perm in my hair for at least the last 14 years.  My hair is also oily and slippery and straight and heavy....blah.  I understand why you want to perm your hair.   The perm made my ends dry and tangled and I couldn't grow my hair much past BSL because of this and recently I had to sacrifice 6 inches(!) of length because it was damaged beyond repair.  I've really had to work to take care of my remaining ends and so far they're ok.  Not pretty mind you, but not tangling either.  If I skimp on my haircare though I can really tell.  Here are some of the things that are working for me:  

daily oiling.  I use 1-2 drops of jojoba with just a bit of shea mixed in (about 1 drop melted shea butter in 1 oz of jojoba oil).  I scrunch it through the last inch or so of hair only and comb it through with a wooden comb(widetooth).  I did use a boar's bristle/nylon brush but it caused way too many splits and I had to give it up.   Besides, I always looked like a puffball if I tried to brush my hair when it was permed.

Weekly clarifying.  At least weekly.  I use a couple of cups of water with a splash of ACV (apple cider vinegar.  If you're blond, use white vinegar)  This will clean all of the product, including the silicones, off of your hair.  I can't use silicones, they make my hair crunchy.  If you respond well to them, that's great.  Anais Satin, here on the boards, has some excellent advice for using silicones without damaging your hair.

Using a good leave-in conditioner.  I wash my hair 3x/week and I use a homemade leave-in on those 3 days, oiling on the other four.  The recipe:  one part conditioner, one part shea butter, one half part oil (I use jojoba)  Melt the shea butter, let cool and mix all together.  It'll combine once it reaches room temp, and you have to stir it every so often until it combines.  Use a small amount (about the size of a pea) on wet hair.  My ends aren't nearly as dry after using this regularly.

Regular S&D, or Search and Destroy missions for split ends.  Dusting for splits is time consuming and depressing, but once I started taking care of my hair their numbers decreased.  

A deep conditioning treatment once a month.  I don't do this very often since my hair overconditions easily.  I use oil and shea butter combined, about a teaspoon of shea to an oz of oil.  Any deep conditioning treatment would work.

I braid my hair when I sleep instead of just pulling it back or sleeping with it loose.  It seems to have decreased the splits, and it does't tangle nearly as much as it used to.  

I've just started this, but massaging my scalp with an aloe/rosemary eo mixture has decreased my greasy scalp problem (1/2 cup aloe, 1 TBSP witch hazel, 1.5 TBSP water.  I use a blob the size of a silver dollar to massage and add a drop or 2 of rosemary eo).

You can find Fruit of the Earth Aloe gel in WalMoo and KMart.  It's usually in the lotion section.  Sometimes you can find shea butter in WalMoo or a well-stocked drugstore.  Check in the ethnic hair care section.  Jojoba oil (pure oil, not mixtures.  Check the label) can be found in health food stores and GNC.

13bodies has covered most of your questions and I would agree with her answers.

As for brushing, I would tend to say - DON'T.  Since your hair is already in a semi-damaged state with the perm, a brush could inflict more damage.  Use a good wide toothed comb (make sure there are no seams or sharp edges).  Shower or detangling combs work well.  My hair is prone to static, so I use a wood comb.


Quote:

So silicone products smother hair? Lately, even if I don't put anything in my hair besides shampoo and conditioner, it sticks together in large strands and feels like it has gel in it. I only way to fix it is to repick it, and then it is a frizz ball. Could this be the silicone? Also, how would you recommend I wash my hair (like what products to use how often)?

I would think that the silicones are building up and causing this condition.  The less often you shampoo, the better.  The longer your hair, the less you want to expose the ends to the harshness of shampoos.  You can do scalp washes if your scalp is oily.  I wash my hair about every 4 - 5 days.  I never actually shampoo the length - I just let the shampoo from my scalp run through my hair.

Using some jojoba oil (or shea butter as 13bodies suggested) on the ends should help keep them from becoming brittle or crunchy.  I oil my ends most every night.  Just a little drop applied to the ends.

I usually suggest clarifying every 3rd shampoo - more often if you feel your hair is getting sticky, crunchy or otherwise showing signs of product buildup.  Some people do a vinegar rinse every time.  

Doing rag curls for lift would be a good alternative.  Just cut or rip strips of fabric, wrap your hair around it, then tie the ends.  You can wrap the entire length, or just some of your hair, depending on what you are trying to accomplish.  They work best when the hair is slightly damp when you roll the hair and let the hair dry while rolled up.  There are a couple of other threads around here that talk more about rag curls if you need more information.

Everyone's hair is a bit different, so you will need to find what works for you, but there are lots of good suggestions here!

I know I keep saying this, but thank you so much. I really appricate you guys sharing your knowledge with me. My hair stays in a pretty healthy condition even with the perm, but it's been looking great since I tried some of your advice.    
I braided my hair last night (ok, mom did. I need to learn how to braid my own hair...). It seems to have really helped. I tried washing my scalp and letting it run down, and that helped too. I found out that my shampoo, spray in, and deep conditioner all have some type of -cones. Would just using a clarifying work or should I try to replace some of my regimen with non -cone stuff (any suggestions)? I'm going to try rag rolls and some of 13bodies suggested recipes soon. Do the recipes store well. My life is a little to crazy to make new batches every day.  I have prom this weekend, and I leave on a band trip to NYC shortly after, so it may be a week or so before I can try some new things or post.
What part of the hair is considered the ends? I know it is the end of the hair, but how much?
Where could I find posts about -cones by Anais Satin? My hair generally seems to do well with -cones. I think my recent cruchiness is too many of them or no clarifying.  
Last but not least, where could I find a good wooden comb? I never seen them made out of wood, but then again I've never looked.

Hey Kitten ;) Nice to meet you...

You can get a wooden comb from Ric Carpenter at http://www.combmaker.com . He does custom work and even personalizes the comb for you with an engraving. His combs a bit of an investment, but they're worth it. The really nice thing about a wooden comb is you can sand it smoother if you need to.

I'm going to crosspost/archive some silicone information for you. You can find it in the Personal Hair Journals board in my thread.

ETA: it's on the first page.
ETA2: seamless combs e.g. by Rachael Stephens, can also be found at http://www.uncommonscents.com

Hugs and blessings :D
Anais

All of the recipes in my post store indefinitely as far as I know.  I mix the rosemary eo in the aloe mixture as needed so the oil doesn't fade, but everything else has lasted about 2 months and seems as good as new.

If you want to try a cheap wooden comb before getting a good one, I've heard they have cheap ones at Bath and Body Works, or you can try here:  http://www.tenderheaded.com/index.html
 I bought one here and I like it so much I'm getting one of Ric's combs soon.  You can't use wooden combs on wet hair.  For wet hair I use a seamless plastic comb, which I also ordered from Tenderheaded.com

wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2005 at 3:05pm:

I I found out that my shampoo, spray in, and deep conditioner all have some type of -cones. Would just using a clarifying work or should I try to replace some of my regimen with non -cone stuff (any suggestions)?

The -cones may be what is keeping your hair looking nice, as they coat over the hairshaft, smoothing it and giving it shine.  You could try eliminating the -cones and see how your hair does.  If you find that it tangles a lot and is unmanageable, you may want to return to using the -cones.  Doing a clarifying rinse regularly should help minimize damage from the -cones themselves.

Good luck and let us know how things go!

Man, I tried washing out my hair with the water/vingar solution today. BEAUTIFUL! It is so soft. It actually looks so pretty today that I was telling my friends at school to feel it. I put on makeup for school just so my hair would not upstage my face!  ;D
I think I am going to start a hair journal to track my experiments and progress. I am also going to but a nice wooden comb as soon as I get a summer job.
I do have a few more questions, though. (I'm notorious for my curiosity).
1. Is there anyway to mask the smell of the vingar? It did go away, but it took awhile.
2. I see a lot of people on this site with tickers that say something like 13bodies so many months/yrs./ect. until a certain length. How do you know when it will reach that length? And what is "Classic length"?
3. Can you suggest any styles for my layered hair? I usually just leave the front layer down or pin it back if it won't go with the rest of the hair, but I would really like some ideas on how to make it part of a style.

Some people use lemon juice or citric acid crystals instead of vinegar, but I've heard it can be drying.  In my journal there's a recipe for making lavender scented ACV,  which involves simmering lavender buds in vinegar and steeping for a week.  It ends up very purple and smelling of lavender.  You can add some essential oils to your ACV rinse; lavender, rosemary, or ylang ylang can be helpful for oily hair.  You have to make sure you are using essential oils and not fragrance oils.  Essential oils can be found in health food stores, and Bath and Body Works has some as well.  You can also make some herbal tea to rinse your hair and add the ACV and that will help mask the smell.  You didn't say what color your hair is, but in general blonds can use chamomile, and redheads hibiscus tea.  I'm a (reluctant) brunette and I use a mixture of catnip, sage, and rosemary.  The catnip adds slip and shine, the sage and rosemary darken.

Classic length is where your bottom meets your legs.  Hair grows an average of 0.5" a month so you can figure from that.

Look under the Growing with it section for ideas on styling with layers.

Classic length is hair to the bottom of your rear end.  ;)  And as for how long...I would think it would be a guess based on how quickly your hair grows and how often you plan to have it trimmed. My hair grows about an inch a month (SO happy about that), and I get half an inch trimmed about every four months, so theoretically I could measure how far I have to go and then calculate how long it would take.

However, hair doesn't always grow at the same speed and sometimes it even stops growing and "rests" for a time. Or so I hear. My hair isn't that long yet so I haven't experienced this.

Anyway, I figure anything anyone writes would really just be their best guess. I got to almost waist-length in three years once without a single trim, so assuming that I'll lose about 1 1/2" a year to trims, I could reasonably guess that in three years of growing I'll be 4-5 inches behind where I was last time and that I'll instead be to BSL (bra-strap length) or a little further. But it's not some precise scientific calculation.

That's my two cents.  :)

Oh, and I can't believe you're brave enough to perm with thin hair. Last year I permed my shoulder-length, fine, thin hair and ended up burning off most of the hair I had left within six months, even after being incredibly careful with it! But since you've done it before perhaps your hair isn't as fragile as mine. At any rate, good luck!

Ella

Did you perm your hair yourself or go to a salon? I'm never heard of hair "burning" off unless something when really wrong. Another factor is that I don't think my hair is fine. I've never got a good instruction on how to tell if hair is fine.

I went to a salon. It looked fabulous at first, but it got more and more dry and brittle over several months (despite TONS of conditioner and extreme care) and at the same time, the frizz monster attacked (I have NEVER had frizzy hair before), and I couldn't do a thing with it. Then suddenly, hair just started breaking off all over. Had to be the chemicals. It wasn't exactly "burned" per se but when a chemical treatment makes my hair start breaking off, that's how I think of it! My friend got her hair chemically straightened, and her hair LITERALLY ended up burned on the underside, to the point where she couldn't even brush it! So now we both avoid that stuff like the plague.

Whether hair is fine has to do with the thickness of individual hairs. Frankly, I don't know what "normal" hair feels like because I come from a family of finehairs. All I know is that my individual stands are so thin, they break very easily if I'm not extremely delicate with my hair at all times. Curling irons screwed up my hair too...that should have been my first clue not to try a perm, but my mom, who also has fine, thin hair, somehow managed it without ending up with frizzy, breaking off hair. *shrugs*

And of course thin hair would be, the volume of all of your hair together. Until recently I looked like I had prematurely thinning hair but with better care it's starting to look like a more normal volume.

Ella

My hair is very fine and thin.  I used to be a perm addict.  I haven't had a perm for about 4 years.  I had an irritated scalp, so I quit.  I was never able to grow my hair much past my shoulders with a perm.  However, I wasn't taking care of my hair the way I am now.  I've had partial perms.  Once, when my hair was about 3 inches below shoulders, I had a partial perm in the crown.  Honestly, I wasn't  happy with the look.  The new part looked "fresher", than the old part.  Maybe she didn't do it right.  I do have some natural wave in my hair, so I'm trying to enhance that without perming.  I know what you mean about wanting a perm, I still want them.  I don't think I would ever be able to grow my hair to my goal (waist) with one.  I have never personally seen a person with very long hair that was permed.   Maybe it can be done, I've never seen it.  I think you always have to trim off damaged hair, thus making it mor e difficult to grow.
All the advice 13bodies gave you was excellent- I've been using jojoba oil and vinegar rinses and I love them.
I use my vinegar rinse in between shampoo and condition and that way it doesn't smell.

ellasongbird-I must not have fine hair. It is thin as far as volume goes, but it rarely if ever breaks off no matter what I do to it. I can't imagine my hair "burning" off in that way. That really bites.  :-/ I don't know why it would do that, but my stylist would never do something that would end up ruining my hair. The one time I wanted it colored and permed, she was extremely careful and waited months between the two processes. My hair behaved the same it always had afterwards.
babyfine- I'm really not worried about my perm. I would not consider myself a perm addict. I only perm when the curl has grown out so much that the straight new growth or curls start looks strange. This could be twice a year if I started with a very loose perm, or once every two years if I started with a tight perm. Also, I don't have a goal length. Growing out my hair is more of an adventure that a want. If my hair never grows past where it is now, I'm fine with that.