Hello Flaming Bunny and the 'Cone Lovers  ;D

You mentioned that 'cone free products give you HUGE splits. I've stuck with cones because they give me great results, but lately I've been wondering if cone-free might give me less tangle. I used cone-free a long time ago... when my hair was still chin length. It left the hair a bit poofy and not as shiny as usual so I went back to cones. They were more convenient and easier to find. Anyway I figured it's about time to give natural stuff another try. Today I found a cheap cone-free Green Tea shampoo to experiment with ... and still nervously waiting for the hair to dry.  :-/

so two questions for y'all:
(1) What kind of damage did you get without cones?
(2) How long did it take for the damage to show?

Anais

I just find that my hair ha smore tangles and is harder to comb without some cones. But too many makes it stiff and gross so I try to just keep it down. Lately I've not been using cones but that's just because I've found that Nexxus Ensure works better than anything with or without cones that I've ever tried.
As far as how long it takes for the damage to show, I'm not sure because I stopped NOT using cones before too much damage could ensue. I think I had quite a bit of breakage from it though.

my hair wasnt really 'damaged' by not using cones but cos my hair is fine, i find cones offer protection in the coating they give. but then after a while my hair gets crunchy  ::)
my hair didnt look damaged...i just found bigger splits when examining my hair closely (as you do... :) )

if the non cones stuff works..use it! just keep a close eye on your hair during the first few weeks of use so you can see how your hair is reacting  :)

good luck with the cone-lessness!

Thanks, Ladies... I'll give coneless some time, and I'll keep an eye out for the results. So far there's been more friction, but so far it's livable.

Anais

I know this is probably obvious to most of you, but just incase it isn't to everyone reading the silicone threads, I'm going to make some observations.

When you stop using silicone, your hair does not suddenly start splitting.  What you are seeing is the removal of the "glue" (silicone) that is gluing what is already damaged together and making it *look* healthier than it is.  This is pretty much the whole purpose of silicone, to make your hair appear smoother.  Using silicone is not removing splits, in fact, it could very well be causing them. Unfortunately, this starts a vicious circle in which your hair splits as a result of silicone buildup but you are forced to use those same silicone-based smoothing products to make it appear smooth again.

If you are serious about breaking the cycle of silicone addiction ;) I suggest you do a trim or at least a major dusting of all split ends as soon as your hair is relatively free of silicone buildup.  Only if you do this can you truly judge how your hair is reacting to silicone-free products rather than just returning to it's natural "unglued" state.

This is only partly true. Silicone is a humectent as well. And there are different ways of forumulating it into conditioners that effect if it builds up, smooths, etc. My chemistry background suggests that the idea that it is "glue" is most certainly exaggerated.

Hi Folks,

....If my hair is the "likes cones" type, how do I know which is the case? (a) my hair splitting because from no no protection or (b) the silicone coating is gone and the splits were "already there"? It seems a bit... impossibly hard to tell. And if that's not one of my half-witted observations than I don't know what is :P

but Noelkara, I agree that there's a lot more to conditioners than just the "glue"... and that silicone conditioners often contain humectants like sorbitol, glycerin, propylene glycol (my herbal mom keeps telling me to avoid this one but we debate this ingredient all the time).. and other things that work with the silicone to keep hair hydrated. Though chemically, but... it makes life so much easier. I won't give up on the no cones though for at least another week and see.

Anais

Well it isn't as though I don't believe cones are hard on some people's hair; everyone is different in that respect.
But there are too many factors to simply call it a masking agent for damage. If a person has hard water, cones can be beneficial if in the right formulation, because hard water is terribly alkaline and the molecular bonds of keratin simply dissolve in alkaline water. That's why chemical processing can literally melt your hair right off -  it's VERY alkaline. And some forumlations of silicone polymers will covalently bond to the keratin, thereby preventing the dissolution of the keratin bonds in hard water. That's the principal behind all the "heat activated" conditioners. And THAT is NOT simply a glue masking damage; it is preventing the amino acid chain from falling apart over time. Although, sometimes dimethicone is just a coating - depends on how cheaply made the product is and how little money they wanted to spend on research to get the formulation right. Enough blabber. I'm still using my cones.

wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2004 at 4:42am:

....If my hair is the "likes cones" type, how do I know which is the case? (a) my hair splitting because from no no protection or (b) the silicone coating is gone and the splits were "already there"? It seems a bit... impossibly hard to tell. And if that's not one of my half-witted observations than I don't know what is :P

LOL!  Not so half-witted.  Your hair isn't likely to split unless it is damaged in some way, so simply stopping using 'cones isn't likely to cause new splits unless you also stop taking care of it.  Cutting out silicone products by no means suggests you should stop taking good care of your hair and finding other products that "protect" it without buildup.

Rapunzel, oh of course I wouldn't stop caring for my hair!! LOL... I keep hearing about how terrible cones are for some people, but I clarify regularly and haven't seen damage in years. The last few days, I've been wondering why I'm even experimenting with coneless--Thinking, "Do I really think my hair can be better than this?" Apparently it can if I find the right product. Thanks a bunch :D

Noelkara, thanks for the chem refresher. I've been a  pharmacology phreak for years, mostly concerning toxic substances though. Which reminds me--you mentioned hard water-- I've heard that its alkalinity dampens shampoo foaming ability... I assume from neutralization on a small scale. Do you know how hard "hard water" must be before a noticeable lather difference? Up here in WA it isn't a problem, but it's something I've been thinking about since I do a lot of traveling. (Although they say foaming isn't any indication of cleanliness, it still tells me where I'm leading the majority of surfactants with no eyeballs ;D ;D)

Anais

I am a -cone-lover. My hair is ok without -cones (it's pampered and has no visible damage), but it doesn't shine very much and tends to frizz. The -cones just provide that little extra boost to help my hair look its best.

I clarify with vinegar once a week.

/Kate

wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2004 at 4:06pm:

I keep hearing about how terrible cones are for some people, but I clarify regularly and haven't seen damage in years. The last few days, I've been wondering why I'm even experimenting with coneless--Thinking, "Do I really think my hair can be better than this?" Apparently it can if I find the right product. Thanks a bunch :D

I think we're comparing apples and oranges here, as though the only difference between conditioners is whether they have or do not have cones.

Conditioners can do three things for the hair (maybe more, but this is how I see it now):

• The increase the moisture uptake and holding capability
  
• They leave a thin coating of oils.
  
• They leave a coating of silicones to make the hair silkier and shinier.

If you had really dry, damaged hair, and used a product that was strictly cones, and of the type that only builds up on the surface, and you never clarified, eventually you would get nasty buildup, and your damage would get worse.

But most conditioners have very complex formulations, and completely aside from cone content, do not work equally well.

I wash my hair with Suave Daily Clarifying conditioner. It is the lightest conditioner I have ever used, and it has no cones. Yet it has very little conditioning or detangling effect. If I were to use this for CO wash and didn't use another conditioner after it, I might think that CO wash didn't work. If I were to exclusively use this product to condition my hair (especially matched up with Suave Daily Clarifying shampoo), I might find increasing damage by the time I used up the first bottle.

Another example: the first time I tried CO wash, I used the VO5 conditioner I had been using all along, and it left my hair feeling greasy. Clearly it was intended to leave a thin coating of oil on hair, rather than cleanse, and if I had stuck with this, I would have given up CO washing rather quickly. So often I have read, I tried CO wash using VO5, or Suave, or White Rain (but specific product name not given) and it left my hair feeling greasy. As though all VO5 or Suave or White Rain products were identical.

Better conditioners attempt to address all the needs of your hair.

But most better conditioners contain some of all three types of conditioning ingredients. The different formulations' interaction with different hair, scalp, and usage conditions results in some people getting crappy results, while others love the product. I love what Pantene does for my hair, but, if you count the two different CO washes I do, it's the fourth rinse on my hair. It just takes a dab to slick on. If I were to apply it straight to harshly shampooed hair, I bet it would suck up a lot more.  

I think in an ideal world, you would be able to select three separate conditioners to address separately the needs of your hair. Or perhaps you could select a custom formulation, which would be mixed in the store as you waited.


wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2004 at 4:06pm:

-- I've heard that its alkalinity dampens shampoo foaming ability... I assume from neutralization on a small scale. Do you know how hard "hard water" must be before a noticeable lather difference? Up here in WA it isn't a problem, but it's something I've been thinking about since I do a lot of traveling. (Although they say foaming isn't any indication of cleanliness, it still tells me where I'm leading the majority of surfactants with no eyeballs ;D ;D) Anais

The alkalinity in hard water does not cause a pH problem with your shampoo. What happens is that the alkaline mineral salts react with ingredients in soaps and shampoos to form insoluble compounds that cling to your hair, and make it feel icky.

When I was in college long ago, I lived in a city that got its water from the local river, and though river water is soft, this water was very polluted. Whereas I had previously washed with Head and Shoulders, this no longer cleaned my hair, and I had to use Prell, which I could see was very harsh.

I think you have to play it as you go. If the shampoo you pack doesn't work in a different water supply, you may need something else, but it would be difficult to predict without testing what you should switch to, especially if you're not going to be there very long.

Thanks Everybody,

So the insolubles that settle out of the hairwash when using hard water... Is that what people call "soap scum"? I vaguely recall that you're a science teacher eKatherine. Thank you so much for your explanations. Don't you wish there was such thing as 'personalized conditioners' that are affordable? I'd be all over it.

I've been trying different coneless products.... Some with green tea extracts, jojoba oil, kelp, algae, mold, fungus, etc... just kidding about the latter two... Most of what I've tried is very similar to my regular conditioner-- it's only missing the cone. None of these conefrees work to keep me from tangling like the Charles D.ickens. With a cone, I can run a comb through my hair from top to bottom (through only a section). Without cones that's an impossibility. No need to think twice anymore ;D it's official. I'm a coner.

Feels like politics :P The cone lovers and the non cone lovers debate is endless.  

Anais

I think it would make $$ sense for somebody to use neutral shampoo/conditioner bases and make custom additions through a website. I know you can buy neutral conditioner base, I've seen it for sale by the gallon over the internet.

Remember Leia's post about making your own shampoo and using herbs? Posters spoke of buying some expensive hard-to-source salon products as bases.

I think it should be possible for a person to modify a conditioner that's already working for them by adding what you think works. If you applied it to 1/2 your head, you could test it against the unmodified product.

Not that everything would work, of course. If jojoba + Pantene Pro-V = gum, that wouldn't be a useful combination. :o

My opinion is that most of the "natural" ingredients in hair care products are only there for people who read the labels, anyway. Mostly a marketing gimmick. Even though rinsing your hair with tea, or seaweed, or applying jojoba may clearly be beneficial to your hair, the concentration in a bottle of conditioner is probably too small to make an impact. Especially if there are a lot of these extract-type ingredients, there's probably very little of each one present.

What are cones?  Do you mean silicone?  Is silicone bad for your hair?

Hi Samantha

Silicone varieties (like dimethicone, dimethiconol, etc.. as long as it has "cone") can be good or bad for your hair. As you can see from this particular thread, there's been a lot of debate about whether silicone derivatives are good for you. It's kinda like... Bill Clinton. You either like him or you don't and everybody has their own evidence or experience to support their opinion.

It depends on your hair's results... The majority of finehairs' tresses are "suffocated" by silicones while others can get sleek results. Rapunzel put it this way: she suggested that after awhile of my cone use, I should clarify and use a coneless to monitor and see if my change revealed any damage (for the record, I didn't get any). Experiment with a silicone product yourself--check the label for something with "cone"-- and let us know how your hair likes it. :D

Anais

Blimey - what a debate going on - to cone or not to cone - that is the question - just thought I'd add my two penneth for what it's worth...

I stopped using anything with cones in about a year ago as my hair is really fine and i was getting really bad build up (also not keen on chemicals) so I have been using cone free shampoo . HOWEVER as it is now getting longer - I think I may have to give in - it's getting rather tangly and I'm concerned that as it's so fine, the extra length will make it weak and delicate. I was thinking of trying either Andrew Collinge long hair shampoo (can't remember it's name) or Elvive for long hair. Has anyone had any experience of either? OR does anyone know of another long hair care shampoo that hasn't got cones in it?

PS: I live in a hard water area and I never get a rich lather out of my shampoo - ever!